【凤凰网】全球战“疫”观察 22 | 封城之惑
2020年4月23日
近期，美国各州出现市民游行示威，抗议政府封城，要求政府解除隔离，甚至要求推行居家令的州长下台。而总统特朗普却连发推特鼓励人民解放。在美国，为什么推行居家令困难重重？全球化智库(CCG)联合凤凰卫视推出抗疫特别系列节目，资深专家深入解读！
【节目背景】
在新冠肺炎疫情全球蔓延背景下，全球化智库（CCG）与凤凰卫视携手策划针对疫情的国际观察节目。节目着眼于人类命运共同体及全球化高度，以真实、理性、务实为基点，通过与国内外知名专家学者面对面访谈或视频连线，深度解读全球新冠肺炎疫情期及恢复期的疫情控制、中外关系、全球合作、贸易政策、公共卫生、全球治理体系改革、应急管理体系完善、污名化等话题，从多维视角探讨疫情对全球发展的影响。
文字实录 | 封城之惑
本期嘉宾
滕邵骏,CCG常务理事、美中公共事务协会会长
Jonathan D. Moreno，CCG特邀嘉宾、宾夕法尼亚大学医学伦理与卫生政策学教授。
Steven Joffe，CCG特邀嘉宾、宾夕法尼亚大学医学伦理与卫生政策学教授
Andy Mok(莫天安），CCG高级研究员
凤凰卫视主持人朱梓橦：近期，美国各州出现市民游行示威，抗议政府封城，要求政府解除隔离，甚至要求推行居家令的州长下台。而总统特朗普却连发推特鼓励人民解放。在美国，为什么推行居家令困难重重？
Fred, you’re in new york for you in new york, aren’t you? What is the situation there?
（弗雷德，你在纽约是吗，那里的情况怎么样?）
CCG常务理事、美中公共事务协会会长縢邵駿：Now In new york to the world. We are the wuhan of the united states, actually worse than wuhan. But I would say that actually the local both our mayor and the governor have done stay at home as everybody stay at home. But we do have the freedom. we were able to go to pharmacy see doctors, we are able to shop, they’re not police like just harshly restricting people’s movement. But everybody also a sensible and they understand if they don’t have to go out, they don’t go out.
(现在纽约对外界来说，就好像美国的武汉一样， 甚至还不如武汉。我们的州长和市长都已经像所有人一样，履行居家令留在家中，不外出。同时这些禁令并不像警察一样严格限制我们的人身自由，我们依然可以去药店，去看医生或者购买生活用品。但是每个人都已经开始重视这些举措，他们知道能不出门就尽量不出门。)
主持人：At the end of March, president donald trump made a proposal to close new york state. There was some opposition voices, but in the end, I think a defect enclosure was actually implemented. What is your view on such closures?
（3月底，特朗普总统提出纽约州封城的建议，虽然遭到了一些反对，但最后还是实施了实际意义上的封城，您如何看待这个问题?）
CCG特邀嘉宾、宾夕法尼亚大学医学伦理与卫生政策学教授Jonathan D. Moreno:But so the main reason to do that in the near term was course to prevent the healthcare system from breaking down. And that has succeeded so far as we can tell. ’m crossing my fingers as I’m saying that At least in new york, that did succeed. We hope it succeeds in other major cities as well.
（我认为短期内这么做的主要原因是为了防止医疗系统崩溃，目前来看，至少在纽约，封城的确起到了这些作用。我希望这些措施可以在其他城市也起效。）
CCG特邀嘉宾、宾夕法尼亚大学医学伦理与卫生政策学教授Steven Joffe：They absolutely do work. and see if you look at curves of where people are getting sick, where people are getting hospitalized, what the numbers are. you can see over and over again that when there’s a lockdown, Couple of weeks after that, the curves start to slow, they start to flatten.
封城绝对起到了作用。如果你去看统计曲线，观察那些人们被感染、住院的数据，你会看到封城的几周后，曲线开始变缓，变平。
It’s important to realize we’re having an argument today. And yesterday in the united states about reopening the country are closing the country where the president says he’s going to order the country reopen. It turns out that actually he doesn’t have the power to do that. Only people who have the power to do that or state governors or city mayors
我们需要意识到我们现在存在争论。昨天我们在讨论是否应该重新开放美国的问题，总统称他会下令让美国重新开放，但他其实并没有权力这么做，只有那些州长和市长们有权这么做。
and so when the president said that he would order new york state to be closed, that actually was not within his power. He could make that recommendation recommended by his experts. But at the end of the day was governor Andrew cuomo, who is the governor of new york. You had the ability to say, we need to close down the economy, closed down businesses, close down schools in the state so that we can protect our population.
所以，当总统说他会下令关闭纽约州的时候，那其实不在他的权力范围之内。他可以根据自己的智囊团来提供建议，但最后，纽约州州长安德鲁·科莫才是那个有权力说，纽约需要通过关闭商业活动，关闭企业，关闭学校来保护纽约人民的人。
主持人：I think it’s very interesting to observe that because of the differences in the governing system, You have the federal government, you have state governments. So this is obviously caused differences in how people handle the pandemic in different countries.
我认为这是非常有趣的现象，因为不同的政治体制，你们有联邦政府，州政府等，这导致了不同国家的人们在处理此次疫情方式的不同。
Yes. And it’s been a struggle, I think, for us in the united states to get coordination between the various levels of government.
是的。我认为，对我们美国人来说，协调各级政府并不容易。
the president doesn’t have the power to order certain actions to be taken in certain states in areas. So it’s the governors and the mayors who have to do that. one hopes that they would work together. One hopes that the federal government and the president would bring the resources that the government has to bear to help the governor’s achieve what they need to get the ventilator to get the protective equipment. But we’ve seen some political tensions between some of the governors and the president. We have seen some of the governor’s not coordinate all that well with each other. So what goes wrong or right in one state will spill over to neighbouring states. So one would wanna much more coordinated response coordinated by the federal government, but with the governors and the localities and the mayors on board, and that has been a difficult thing to achieve at a time of considerable political friction and disagreement in the united states.
总统没有权力命令在某些州或某些地区采取某些行动，州长和市长们才是有那权力的人。人们希望他们能够合作，希望联邦政府能给予地方一些资源上的援助，比如呼吸机或者防护设备等。但是我们还是看到了一些州长和总统之间存在政见分歧，一些州长之间的合作并不顺利。任何一个州作出的错误或正确决定都会给邻州造成影响。所以人们会希望通过联邦政府来协调各个州长，地方官员和市长，而考虑到美国国内众多的政治摩擦与意见分歧，要实现这些协调并不容易。
CCG高级研究员莫天安：I think the Chinese government response has been one decisive, systematic, and comprehensive. So first of all, not too long after the first cases were identified in wuhan, the central government acted very decisively. And if we think about wuhan is one of the largest cities in the world in terms of population. So making the decision which course is not an easy one to lock down the city as well as surrounding the cities as well. And taking other measures, of course. But I think one being decisive. Second being very systematic and comprehensive, meaning that not just decisions made at the central level, but these decisions were rapidly implemented at the provincial level, at the municipal level, even down to the neighborhood level. I think this is one of the unique features of the Chinese system of governance
我认为中国政府的反应是非常果断，且系统与全面的。在武汉发现首例病例后不久，中央政府就迅速采取了行动。武汉是世界上人口最多的城市之一，决定封锁，乃至包围城市并不是一个容易的决定，所以我认为中国政府的反应非常果断。还有就是措施的系统性与全面性，封城不仅是中央层面的一个决定，这些决定在省级、市级政府，甚至在社区层面都得到了迅速的执行，这是中国治理体系的独特特征之一。
In that some countries like the united states, have a fragmented political system, meaning that the federal government could make one decision. A state governor could decide to do the opposite, and a mayor of that state could yet decide something completely different. So you get this conflict amongst different levels of government, which of course makes it difficult, if not impossible, to have a coordinated, systematic response.
美国等一些国家的政治体系较为分散，这会造成当联邦政府做出一项决定，州长可能会做出相反的决定，而该州的某一市长仍可以做出完全不同的决定。因此，你会看到冲突在各级政府之间很常见，这对构建一个有协调的、系统的反应机制是非常困难的。
So whether we’re talking about a pandemic, other types of challenges as well. I think that the Chinese government system is very effective. So the world is learning, not just the decisions that were made with regard to Covid-19. I think also now starting to think about the entire system of governance as well.
无论我们是在谈论此次大流行还是其他类型的问题，我认为中国的体制都是非常有效。同时我认为，世界正在学习的不仅仅是（中国政府）对于新冠疫情的反应及其整个治理体系。
【往期回看】
全球战“疫”观察1 | 我们不是孤岛，全球危机如何“破题”？
文章选自凤凰卫视《寰宇同舟—全球战“疫”观察》栏目，2020年4月20日
